STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
One of the names on the letter we just heard about is Dr. Richard Besser. He was acting director of the CDC in 2009, which was at the start of the Swine flu pandemic. Now he is president at the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, which is a philanthropic organization focused on public health. And we'll disclose they're also a financial supporter of NPR. We cover them like anybody else. Dr. Besser, good morning.
RICHARD BESSER: Good morning, Steve. Good to be here.
INSKEEP: You must still know people who are or, until recently, were inside the CDC. What are you hearing from inside the agency?
BESSER: Well, I'm hearing a number of things. One, I'm hearing gratitude that people are speaking up and saying that this is not business as usual. You know, the CDC, I worked there for 13 years, and, you know, I ran emergency preparedness and response during the Bush administration and then I was acting director during the Obama administration. And it never mattered. It's an agency full of technical experts who are focused on protecting the health of people here and around the world. What we're seeing now is not business as usual. It's an agency that was suffering morale problems before this administration. You know, during the COVID pandemic, we saw politicization of public health like we've never seen before, and political leaders who were scoring points off of condemning and criticizing CDC.
So we lost a lot of public health leaders at the federal, state and local level during that period. And the hope was that with this administration, with a reset, we would start to see people's trust and faith in public health coming back. And instead, we've seen a secretary come in who not only is not working to improve morale at the agency, but he came in with such a strong anti-public health, anti-vaccine agenda that it's been extremely demoralizing for people who work there.
INSKEEP: It's very interesting that you point that out. You had a case with the incoming administration that vaccine skeptics come into the government, and one plausibility would have been that they would get in there, look around, talk to the experts, learn more evidence and decide that public health was a little bit more secure and give a little bit more reassurance to those people who are skeptical. You're saying the opposite has happened.
BESSER: The exact opposite. You know, the secretary was known to be one of the nation's leading anti-vaccine advocates. He came in, he removed the committee of experts who provide such critical information. I'm a general pediatrician and practiced for more than 30 years, and I always look to the CDC for the recommendations for my patients, you know, which vaccines should I use? Who is at risk? I'm telling people now, don't do that. You know, talk to your own doctor, talk to your nurse, talk to your pharmacist, but you can't be assured that the recommendations coming out of CDC for vaccines are based on the best evidence.
That's why the current director resigned. That's why we saw - or that's why she was fired. She refused to endorse those recommendations. And it's why we saw resignations from critical leaders at the agency. They didn't feel that their names could be on the agency and have it appear that they were supporting these recommendations from the secretary that didn't involve their consultation and aren't based on the best science.
INSKEEP: You're saying that as a pediatrician, you have in the past looked at the CDC. That's a thing we've done in our family - what does the CDC say about this or that? You're explicitly saying, don't listen to the CDC anymore. Can't trust them. Is there anybody you can trust, any authority that a doctor can trust for information here?
BESSER: Yeah. And, you know, we are seeing medical organizations step up, and that's critically important. The organization that represents pediatricians - I'm a member - they put out recommendations. The organization that represents OBGYNs. There's a number of activities that are going on to try and provide the medical community with the information they need so they can support their patients. But it's so incredibly confusing. If you have the government saying one thing, you have your doctor and others saying another, it's very hard for patients.
And more than that, you know, in our country, if the CDC recommends a vaccine - we have a program called Vaccines for Children, which makes sure that every child can get the vaccine regardless of income or insurance. Now that's not the case. You know, if the CDC doesn't recommend it, we're going to be in a situation where if you have money in your pocket, you can get the vaccine. And if you don't, you're going to be in trouble.
INSKEEP: So this is not freedom of choice on vaccines, this is removing the choice for many people?
BESSER: Exactly. And in America, people should have the right to make that decision.
INSKEEP: Dr. Richard Besser was acting director of the CDC. He's now at the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Thanks so much.
BESSER: Thank you, Steve.
INSKEEP: We reached out to the Department of Health and Human Services for comment, by the way. We've not heard back. Over time, we've invited RFK Jr. to come back on this program. He's been on before. He's welcome back.
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