SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
President Trump is changing long-standing norms around how the government hires and fires people, including by trying to turn tens of thousands of federal workers into at-will employees. President says it's part of making the government more accountable. His critics contend that he is politicizing the civil service. NPR's Andrea Hsu reports.
ANDREA HSU, BYLINE: To understand what's at stake for federal workers, consider what happened to Erez Reuveni. Back in April, the Justice Department lawyer was in court, representing the government in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. He's the man the government mistakenly deported to El Salvador. The judge asked Reuveni how Abrego Garcia was seized in the first place and why the Trump administration was not bringing him back. Reuveni answered candidly. He told the judge he was frustrated that he didn't have answers. He was put on leave the next day and later fired. Attorney General Pam Bondi blasted his performance on Fox News.
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PAM BONDI: On Day 1, I issued a memo that you are to vigorously advocate on behalf of the United States. He shouldn't have taken the case. He shouldn't have argued it if that's what he was going to do.
HSU: Reuveni hasn't spoken publicly about his termination, but Stacey Young has. She says his firing was wrong.
STACEY YOUNG: He stood up in court and told the truth. And it seems like in this case, he was denied any kind of due process before he was fired.
HSU: Young is an 18-year veteran of the Justice Department who left in January. She says this is not how the system is supposed to work. Under the Civil Service Reform Act, federal employees have strong job protections. There are steps the government must follow before taking any disciplinary action. They cannot be removed based on political whim. Young says this is for the good of the American people.
YOUNG: It ensures that we have experts working in the government. It ensures that we have a system where brilliant, qualified people can spend their entire careers there helping the American public.
HSU: But the Trump administration is seeking to upend basic civil service protections for tens of thousands of federal workers. Its proposed a new rule that would reclassify them into a new category of at-will employees. This was something that Trump attempted during his first term. It was called Schedule F back then. Office of Management and Budget Director Russell Vought spoke about it at his confirmation hearing in January.
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RUSSELL VOUGHT: Schedule F is not a tool to fire individuals.
HSU: Although, to be clear, it would make it easier.
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VOUGHT: It is meant to ensure that the administration, the president has people who are working for him that are actually going to do the policies that he ran on that he's articulating. We think that's an important fundamental principle, and it does not...
HSU: But Stacey Young says this sets up a dangerous situation.
YOUNG: There wouldn't need to be any reason given for just firing people.
HSU: Young now leads an organization aimed at helping Justice Department employees who are facing challenges. She says every day she hears about people being told to do things that are unprofessional, unethical, even illegal, or they're being told to resign. Asked about this, the Justice Department told NPR its attorneys are expected to uphold all legal and ethical duties. Now with the proposed rule, Young fears many attorneys could become at-will employees, which would change the nature of the Justice Department entirely.
YOUNG: It would be devastating. It would demand a level of sycophancy that we have not seen since the 19th century.
HSU: Making it hard to recruit and retain good people, she says.
And speaking of recruiting, the Trump administration put out a new hiring plan last month that it says will bring to the workforce, quote, "only the most talented, capable and patriotic Americans." It includes new essay questions for job applicants, including one on how they would implement the president's executive orders.
Don Kettl, a retired professor of public policy from the University of Maryland, says the problem with that is you're not hiring people to serve our particular president.
DON KETTL: You ought to be hiring people now with the capacity to manage government programs effectively for the next decade, two decades or more.
HSU: It's the expertise the government needs, he says, not loyalty to our particular administration.
Andrea Hsu, NPR News. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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