JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
This is All Things Considered from NPR News. I'm Juana Summers in Washington.
MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
And I'm Mary Louise Kelly at the Munich Security Conference where I have to say you can barely turn around without running into a U.S. senator. There's more than a quarter of the Senate rolling into this city to talk security and defense and the future of America's alliances with our allies. So we have invited two of those senators, North Carolina Republican Thom Tillis and New Hampshire Democrat Jeanne Shaheen to come talk us through what they're here to get done. Welcome to both of you. We are up on this breezy, chilly February rooftop up above the conference. It's great to see you in Germany.
JEANNE SHAHEEN: It's nice to be here and...
THOM TILLIS: Yeah. Thank you.
SHAHEEN: I am excited that we have a strong bipartisan delegation from the Senate.
KELLY: This is the biggest U.S. delegation at this conference in its history, 62 years. What do you think explains that? Why are y'all all here?
SHAHEEN: Again, I think it's because there is an interest in reassuring our European partners, who are the majority of the people who are here, that the United States is still a good partner, that we still think this relationship is very important and that we support NATO and our allies.
KELLY: Senator Tillis, let me sharpen the question I just put to Senator Shaheen. Does the U.S. Congress maybe have a bigger role to play here than in years past in speaking for the United States and its values on the world stage in a moment when a lot of Europe is not happy with what they are hearing from the White House?
TILLIS: I almost - on my desk in my office for many years, my assistant - one of my assistants got me, from a flea market, the placemat on how a bill becomes law, and it has the three branches of government. And I think that when we get caught up in some of the rhetoric that's coming out of the administration - a lot positive, some I don't believe being constructive - it's always important to let them know that Congress does play a role. And it's also important to let them know a delegation of this size is a very clear indication of how important we know our trans-Atlantic partnerships are, and we have an opportunity assert - to assert it. And that's why we come here and let them understand that at the end of the day, the Article 1 branch does play a role in our long-term mutual defense.
KELLY: Stay with the rhetoric. Last year, at this conference in this hotel, JD Vance showed up. He delivered a speech that was felt as a grenade thrown into the room by a lot of people sitting there. This year, it is Marco Rubio. We don't know what he's going to say. What do y'all want to hear? Senator Shaheen?
SHAHEEN: Well, I think there were a lot of us who were very surprised in both parties who were here last year at what the vice president said. I think it's important that he's not here this year. I think that sends a signal.
KELLY: Were you in the room last year?
SHAHEEN: Yes.
KELLY: And?
SHAHEEN: And I thought it was not relevant to the challenges that the United States and our allies are facing now.
KELLY: How about you, Senator Tillis?
TILLIS: Well, I think we do have to go back. I would not have delivered the speech that Vice President Vance did last year but...
KELLY: What did you not like about it?
TILLIS: I think that what I didn't - what I haven't liked about the NATO relationship over the last 24 years is the deficit in spending that, in some respects, has caused this tumult. Imagine if the NATO partners had simply paid the 2% threshold since 2000. We'd have had over $2 trillion in supply chain, demand signals, capabilities, readiness. So I think when you hear the president or the vice president speak, they may not be articulating that anger the way that they should, but there is anger there.
KELLY: So that was an artful pivot, but my question of what you want to hear from Secretary Rubio is...
TILLIS: That the NATO allowance - alliance is strong, and it will continue to be strong if our NATO partners continue to make a commitment that they've made now that they lapsed on - many of them - for 20 years.
KELLY: Y'all just landed this morning. I know you're running on fumes. Have you already heard the word rupture as you walk around these halls, as in rupture in the trans-Atlantic alliance, rupture in the world order?
SHAHEEN: I haven't. We're just starting our meetings, and the program is just beginning. So I suspect we will hear that but so far haven't heard it.
KELLY: How about you?
TILLIS: I think I have this personal philosophy that nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems. And the thing that I would suggest is, while politicians may be talking about rupture, the people with stars on their shoulders are working together every day, and that's a very important message for everyone to take around. Politicians do what politicians do, but people in the Armed Services are still working together, and they're ready to come to our mutual defense.
KELLY: Yeah. Just to put the direct question to both of you, what is your answer when European leaders, U.S. allies come up to you in the hallways at this conference and say, we're not sure America is a reliable ally any longer? 'Cause you're going to get that. That's what they're saying, and they're even saying it publicly now and on stage. Senator Tillis?
TILLIS: I think the American people are solidly behind the NATO alliance. You can see any poll that suggests that there will be a consequence for anyone who thinks that they can walk away from it politically. What I would tell those leaders is to double down on their defense. We can't be everywhere all the time all at once. And I think that it's healthy for Europe to recognize that they may, at some level, have to carry the burden equal to ours in the defense of their own homelands. That's a very important point to make. We have to defend ourselves in every hemisphere. And so, you know, help us help you by just stepping up a little bit and then maintaining that focus over time. A part of what we're dealing with now is frustration with the drift, and I'm seeing positive signs, and I'm reassuring them that the Congress is behind them, the American people are behind them. That's why we're here.
SHAHEEN: Absolutely. We're here to try and reassure people who have those concerns.
KELLY: I'll close by noting, I'm kind of smiling that I had to fly all the way to Germany to get a Republican senator and a Democratic senator to talk to me together. This is hard to do in Washington.
SHAHEEN: You didn't ask us in Washington.
TILLIS: If you'd asked us...
KELLY: Oh, we've asked (laughter).
TILLIS: We'd have done it anywhere, right?
SHAHEEN: That's right. We do it...
TILLIS: We take it on the road...
SHAHEEN: That's right.
TILLIS: But we do it back home too (laughter).
KELLY: But I think the reason it is - this is a relatively hard booking. Give me that. And I think part of the reason is that usually when you get a Republican and a Democrat in the same room, there's so much daylight between you. Y'all are in lockstep on the future of the alliance in NATO. Am I hearing that right?
SHAHEEN: Absolutely. And we have been since...
TILLIS: And I believe - and, Jeanne, don't you agree that - I mean, I'm not going to speak for individual members, but I'm a - I have very few skills. One of them is vote counting, and there's no question in my mind that the vast majority...
SHAHEEN: Absolutely.
TILLIS: ...Of Senate members on a bipartisan basis know that this is the bedrock of our own national security.
SHAHEEN: And there was a reason why when President Trump was raising questions about NATO in the first Trump administration that the Senate came in and said, listen, you need Senate approval to pull the United States out of the NATO alliance.
KELLY: That is Democrat Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire and Republican Thom Tillis of North Carolina. Senators, great to see you on this very cold roof in Munich.
SHAHEEN: (Laughter) Yes.
KELLY: I'll let you get inside.
SHAHEEN: We're going to go in and warm up.
KELLY: Get some coffee. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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