MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
We wanted to hear another perspective on how DHS operates or could operate with someone with deep knowledge. That's Jeh Johnson. He served as secretary of Homeland Security in the Obama administration, and he's with us now. Good morning, Mr. Secretary. Thanks so much for joining us.
JEH JOHNSON: Good morning, and thank you for having me.
MARTIN: So the first thing I just wanted to ask you, as a person who led that department - when you watch the many videos of immigration enforcement actions in Minnesota, but also elsewhere, what do you see?
JOHNSON: Frankly, I see a force that I used to lead that is now ill-trained, hot-tempered, undisciplined, that has lost its way. The Department of Homeland Security was created, as you know, in the wake of 9/11 to keep Americans safe from the videos. And videos don't always accurately portray what is going on in its entirety in a community. But what I see - what appears to be the case - is thousands of DHS personnel as an occupying force in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area. And when you put such a large force like that in military-like apparel, masked, there are bound to be confrontations. It's bound to inflame people, agitate people, and it's tragic. Renee Good and Alex Pretti did not have to die, but it's almost inevitable in these kinds of circumstances.
MARTIN: So let's dig into a couple of things that you've said here. I want to remind people, though - the Obama administration deported more than 3 million people across both his terms, more than...
JOHNSON: Yes.
MARTIN: ...Any other president in U.S. history. There were people who objected. There were people who criticized loudly. And yet those actions didn't trigger the kind of chaos and deadly shootings by...
JOHNSON: Right.
MARTIN: ...Federal agents like we've seen in Minneapolis today. What was different?
JOHNSON: So an effective immigration enforcement policy - and I'm not saying we had it perfect in the Obama administration, but there are dual, seemingly conflicting objectives. One is a secure border. Americans want a secure border. If you go to Laredo, Texas, which is, like, 80% Mexican American, they want a secure border, and I believe Americans are entitled to a secure border. My second year in office as secretary, we had one of the lowest numbers of illegal border crossings in, like, 20 years. So a secure border is one objective. Another objective is, focus on the criminals who are undocumented for reasons of public safety while trying to treat, in a fair and humane manner, those who have been here for 20 years undocumented, committed no crimes, want to get on the books, want to be accountable. Give them an opportunity. So President Obama created DACA in 2012 for childhood arrivals, as you may recall.
And so those are twin objectives, seemingly in conflict, but that has to be the overall goal of an effective immigration policy. And what I used to say to our enforcement and removal operations personnel, Tom Homan included, is when you're out on the streets in a big city like Minneapolis or Chicago or New York, use your common sense. One notorious incident - dragging a grandmother off a church steps or pulling a kid out of school - can derail your entire mission in a community by agitating the population there. And we're - unfortunately, we're seeing that in spades right now in Minneapolis.
MARTIN: To that end, you presided over DHS after a big hiring surge for Border Patrol officers. So you mentioned training. Is this about training and onboarding, or is this about the political leadership and the direction that they've been given?
JOHNSON: I suspect it's all of the above. You know, across law enforcement, Michel, whether it's Border Patrol, ICE, the FBI, New York City Police Department, there has to be training in tactics of de-escalation - learning how to de-escalate a conflict rather than see it escalate into something lethal. You know, Renee Good died over how she parked her car on a street. George Floyd, six years ago, died over an argument that began with a counterfeit $20 bill. Eric Garner in New York City, 2014, died through a chokehold in an argument that started over a carton of cigarettes. So tactics in de-escalation are so important - to de-escalate a situation, let tempers lower before an unnecessary death occurs.
There's been a surge in hiring lately at DHS among ICE personnel, CBP. And I worry that in the effort to plus up, we may not be adequately training new people who are coming on board to learn how to be effective law enforcement officers.
MARTIN: You worked with Tom Homan when you were leading DHS. Will sending Homan to Minnesota make a difference there?
JOHNSON: I believe that it will. I - my educated speculation is that the president sent him there to try to calm things down. I worked with Tom when he was head of enforcement and removal operations at ICE during the Obama administration. He was a career senior civil servant at the time. And without a doubt, Tom's pro-enforcement. But, you know, to come at an effective immigration policy, I also had the benefit of people who reflected the activist point of view from the left at my conference table. And so you really do have to be able to balance all sides and hear all sides in this very, very difficult, sensitive issue.
MARTIN: That is Jeh Johnson. He was Homeland Security secretary in the Obama administration. Mr. Johnson, thanks so much for sharing these insights with us.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
MARTIN: I do want to mention that we have asked current DHS and White House officials to join us for an interview. We've repeatedly asked, and those invitations remain open.
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