MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
After three decades in office, you might think you know everything there is to know about one of the Democratic Party's most influential lawmakers, Congressman Jim Clyburn of South Carolina. But one assumption many have about him is incorrect. He is not the first Black congressman from his native state. There were eight others before him. His new book, "The First Eight," tells the story of these eight men who overcame incredible odds from slavery to freedom to the bloody backlash of Reconstruction and paved the way for him and others in American politics. And Congressman Clyburn is with us now in our studios in Washington, D.C. Congressman, thank you so much for coming by to see us.
JIM CLYBURN: Well, thank you very much for having me.
MARTIN: I know that you were a history teacher before you entered politics, although you were always, you know, an activist. But so many of the people in your book many people have never heard of. And I wondered, how did you know about them?
CLYBURN: My daddy was a real stickler for education. And my dad thought that Robert Smalls was a great guy. He introduced me to Robert Smalls.
MARTIN: Well, tell me about Robert Smalls.
CLYBURN: Robert Smalls is No. 6...
MARTIN: The story is incredible. I mean, the story - I mean, honestly, it's a movie.
CLYBURN: Yeah. Robert Smalls was No. 6 in this group. This is a guy who was born enslaved. His mother talked the master - their owner - into letting him go to Charleston and work upon the waterfront. And while he was on that waterfront, people noticed that he had leadership skills. So he was kind of put in charge of all the other enslaved people on the ship. And the three guys who ran the ship, they had this habit of every Friday night, they would leave the ship, go into town, would not come back until the next day. Well, one day, when they were gone, Smalls smuggled his wife onto the ship and took off.
MARTIN: So he smuggles a supply ship across...
CLYBURN: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...Confederate lines into Union hands.
CLYBURN: Yes.
MARTIN: Amazing.
CLYBURN: And his reward was his freedom. Everybody on the ship got their freedom. And he got 1,500 bucks in cash, and he became the first African American captain in the United States Navy.
MARTIN: So let's skip through. We've already talked about Robert Smalls. Let's go to the eighth, George Washington Murray. Let's talk about him and the scheme to deprive him of his seat by the then-governor, you know, Ben so-called "Pitchfork" Tillman...
CLYBURN: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...Who created the scheme of creating sort of a set of false electors or dual electors...
CLYBURN: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...In order to invalidate the electors who had been selected by the voters.
CLYBURN: Much like they're doing today.
MARTIN: And I just was - I don't know if you grew up knowing about that, but when you came upon this information, I was just wondering how it struck you.
CLYBURN: Well, when I saw what was happening after the 2020 elections - someone had taken a playbook from the 1876 election. What was going on up in Michigan, trying to get these alternative set of electors - when this happened is when I changed the direction of the book. Because the book was going to be just to inform people about these guys, but then it got to the point where it's - no, it's got to be more instructive than informing. And so I really almost started over with the book.
MARTIN: One of the things about the book that's also interesting is you talk about obviously the obstacles that these men faced, and you talked about obviously the intense racism that they all faced. But one of the other things that's interesting is you also talk about the way that color...
CLYBURN: Colorism.
MARTIN: ...Colorism dynamics played into...
CLYBURN: Absolutely.
MARTIN: ...Their careers. And that's a - it's still a sensitive subject, I think, among a lot of - some African Americans. And I was just wondering why it was important to you to talk about those things.
CLYBURN: I thought that it'd be real. My whole thing, that's the history. When I ran in 1992, it was an issue in my campaign. When I got to Charleston, I was told that I was a come-here and not a been-here, which is very important back then.
MARTIN: A come-here, not been-here.
CLYBURN: Yeah.
MARTIN: Well, that's...
CLYBURN: Which means you just...
MARTIN: You just showed up.
CLYBURN: You just showed up.
MARTIN: A come-here, not a been-here.
CLYBURN: Yeah.
MARTIN: OK.
CLYBURN: And you were treated differently as a result of that. But the fact of the matter is, you need to work through all of that, and you aren't going to work through it by avoiding it.
MARTIN: All right. Have you made a decision about whether you're going to run for reelection? I mean...
CLYBURN: Not really.
MARTIN: Yeah. You know, Nancy Pelosi's only a few months older than you, and she's made...
CLYBURN: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...The decision that she's not going to run again because, you know, the argument that some are making is it's time for kind of a generational...
CLYBURN: Well...
MARTIN: ...Turnover. What are your thoughts about that?
CLYBURN: Well, my family and I started meeting at what we call our family summit every year. We started back in 1972.
MARTIN: You've mentioned that to me before...
CLYBURN: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...That you have basically an accountability circle in your family...
CLYBURN: Absolutely. And we reflect on...
MARTIN: ...Where it is their responsibility...
CLYBURN: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...To reflect on whether you're still capable of doing...
CLYBURN: That's exactly right.
MARTIN: ...The job in a manner that you would all wish.
CLYBURN: And we will have that meeting on 20 December, and we'll stay together until New Year's Day. And during that time is when we're going to make a decision.
MARTIN: One way or the other.
CLYBURN: Yeah, yeah. You know, I feel great. I still - I can play 36 holes of golf in one day. And I can tell you, no of the voters down there are asking me to leave. In fact, just the opposite. They want the benefit of that experience.
MARTIN: So before we let you go, when you look at the history of these eight men that you profiled, what do you draw from it?
CLYBURN: I draw from that simply that anything that's happened before can happen again. And so you cannot allow this president with this majority in the Congress to cause you to react to their foolishness because that's what happened before, and it will happen again if you aren't careful. And we saw some of it in the last election when he got a big increase in the African American male vote especially. And when you talk to them, oh, he's strong. In fact, I told Joe Biden the last time I talked to him about this - I said, you know what? I used to say there's no substitute for substance. But I don't say that anymore because people seem to be more attracted by style these days than substance. And so that's one of the things that I talk about in this book.
MARTIN: That is Congressman Jim Clyburn. His latest book is "The First Eight: A Personal History Of The Pioneering Black Congressmen Who Shaped A Nation." Jim Clyburn, the ninth...
CLYBURN: (Laughter).
MARTIN: ...Congressman Clyburn, the ninth, thank you so much for speaking with us.
CLYBURN: Well, thank you very much for having me.
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