ANDREW LIMBONG, HOST:
The late great film critic Roger Ebert wrote this in a one-star review about a movie I love. Quote, "through a torturous series of contrived misunderstandings, the boy and girl avoid happiness for most of the movie, although not as successfully as we do." (Laughter) It's a brutal line, but that's what's so great about art - right? - different strokes for different folks. But what is it like to be a lone yea voice in a sea of naysayers, to champion a movie you think is art when others think it's trash? For our weekly movie conversation, we've got NPR editor Barrie Hardymon in here. Hey, Barrie.
BARRIE HARDYMON, BYLINE: Hi.
LIMBONG: And ALL THINGS CONSIDERED producer Marc Rivers. Hey, Marc.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, Andrew.
LIMBONG: First question to you 'cause I've got a bone to pick with you.
RIVERS: (Laughter).
LIMBONG: You produced this segment, and you originally framed these movies as guilty pleasures.
RIVERS: This is true.
LIMBONG: I'm not sure if I buy into that as a concept quite yet, but make the case. What is a guilty pleasure to you?
RIVERS: Well, you know, I should say, I don't fully believe in guilty pleasures in the sense that all the movies that I enjoy, I enjoy them guilt-free.
HARDYMON: (Inaudible).
RIVERS: These are all movies I really love, and I feel no shame about them. But I guess I would say that what distinguishes these kind of movies is a kind of lack of guilt. There's, like, a - there's a shamelessness to some of these movies, that they are just unapologetically themselves and not considering...
HARDYMON: Taste.
RIVERS: ...Consensus ideas of taste or tact. But they stick to their guns as far as their subject matter and also how they deal with it. And I love that lack of shame about what you are. That can be very appealing.
LIMBONG: Yeah. Barrie, do you agree with that?
HARDYMON: Yeah, it's like being committed to the bit. I get it.
RIVERS: Exactly.
HARDYMON: But I will say that is not how I think of a guilty pleasure because I think, obviously, you know, guilty pleasure is about your own psychology and how you approach it. None of my guilty pleasures - I do not believe there are then - are alike in any way because - except in that they are mine. You know what I mean?
LIMBONG: Yeah, how you feel about them.
HARDYMON: And I will say this. Here's the thing I really - my real bone to pick with guilty pleasures, which is that this is a term that, like, was a religious term. And after that, it just became a thing that was just for things that were women-coded. Like, it was, like, romance novels and movies that were emotional. It was like - it was a little bit like the way we would talk about, like, chick lists.
RIVERS: It's this (ph)...
HARDYMON: And it's like, dude, "Pride And Prejudice" is chick-led (ph).
RIVERS: It's this notion of stuff that appeals to you emotionally but not intellectually, right? Like...
HARDYMON: Right, or it was just somehow lesser than.
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARDYMON: But then, like, all the Westerns and, like, Larry McMurtry got away with being like, you know...
LIMBONG: Serious (laughter).
HARDYMON: ...Simple. Simple folk for simple - you know what I mean? So I do feel like we should acknowledge that guilty pleasures, for a long time, was used as a sort of misogynist hit phrase.
RIVERS: A put-down, yeah.
HARDYMON: Yeah, exactly.
LIMBONG: All right, so let's start naming some names. What are some movies that we consider not guilty pleasures net, but our personal guilty pleasures?
HARDYMON: There you go.
LIMBONG: Barrie, why don't you start?
HARDYMON: I want to just say that this was a movie that was critically panned, and I think the critics were wrong.
(LAUGHTER)
HARDYMON: So I really - like, this is not - this does not fall into the so-bad-it's-good category, I don't think.
LIMBONG: Yeah.
RIVERS: This was straight-up good.
HARDYMON: But it also has really put strain on my marriage, so...
LIMBONG: OK.
HARDYMON: ...Having said that, "Shining Through," which is the greatest Nazi spy movie ever made by Melanie Griffith and Michael Douglas...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SHINING THROUGH")
MELANIE GRIFFITH: (As Linda Voss) You're a spy, Mr. Leland.
MICHAEL DOUGLAS: (As Ed Leland) And you've seen too many movies, Miss Voss.
GRIFFITH: (As Linda Voss) Enough to know a spy when I see one.
LIMBONG: What year are we talking about?
HARDYMON: Like, in the 90s - exactly when I was really, really excited about watching, you know, Nazi romance movies - not romances with Nazis, but at the time period.
RIVERS: (Inaudible).
HARDYMON: And - anyway, but this movie has it all. It has Melanie Griffith and Michael Douglas slow dancing to hits from the '40s. It has Melanie Griffith pretending to be a German spy and buying from a fishmonger in Berlin.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SHINING THROUGH")
GRIFFITH: (As Linda Voss) I know the codes. I know the network. I know the whole operation.
DOUGLAS: (As Ed Leland) Linda, you are a secretary. You are not a spy.
HARDYMON: Like, I mean, it is the craziest movie. It's so good. It's the fun of seeing, you know, familiar faces that I love for different reasons.
RIVERS: Yeah. And, like, movie stars.
LIMBONG: Yeah.
HARDYMON: Melanie Griffith, at that time, was a movie star who was, like, a woman. There was something so great about the whole thing. Like, it just felt sort of lusty, and anyway, I love this movie.
RIVERS: Yeah.
LIMBONG: Marc, what about you?
RIVERS: Well, speaking of movie stars, I will pick a movie-star movie, not surprisingly a Tom Cruise film, and it's "Top Gun."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DANGER ZONE")
KENNY LOGGINS: (Singing) Metal under tension, beggin' you to touch and go. Highway to the danger zone.
RIVERS: Speaking of lusty movies, but this is...
HARDYMON: (Laughter).
RIVERS: ...Homoerotic lust going on here.
LIMBONG: Yeah.
RIVERS: And, you know, I think about - one thing you look to for stars like Michael Douglas, Melanie Griffith or a Tom Cruise is, to me, they can kind of take any material, no matter how down in the muck, and just elevate it. And Tom Cruise is an example of someone whose screen persona is so particular and so intense that he's just - he's hypnotically watchable, even if you don't quite buy the human behavior that's happening in this movie. "Top Gun" is the sweatiest movie of the '80s.
HARDYMON: (Laughter).
RIVERS: It's basically the '80s distilled in an energy drink. And I think, at the time, you know, it was like, oh, this is military propaganda. This is jingoistic. But, you know, now that the American empire is crumbling, I think now we can look at it as this innocent, boys-having-fun movie that it is.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "TOP GUN")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Come on, Mav, four to seven now. We can get them. You guys are animals.
RIVERS: There are so many strange dialogue scenes between Tom Cruise and Kelly McGillis, who plays the love interest, where you're just like, these two are not from the same planet that we're from.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "TOP GUN")
TOM CRUISE: (As Maverick) I can see it's dangerous for you. But if the government trusts me, maybe you could.
KELLY MCGILLIS: (As Charlie) It takes a lot more than just fancy flying.
RIVERS: So many interesting line deliveries from Tom Cruise and Val Kilmer, it just - the erotic charge between them is just emanating off the screen.
HARDYMON: Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "TOP GUN")
VAL KILMER: (As Ice) You're everyone's problem. That's because every time you go up in the air, you're unsafe. I don't like you because you're dangerous.
CRUISE: (As Maverick) That's right, Ice - man, I am dangerous.
RIVERS: That's just one of those films where it is just - it's just flinging itself at you. I'm just like, yes.
LIMBONG: It's so funny, Marc, why you listed "Top Gun" as a guilty pleasure. I remember watching "Top Gun: Maverick" and being like, let's defund the public safety net. Let's defund the schools. Let's give it all to the military.
(LAUGHTER)
LIMBONG: These planes are so cool. Let's do it.
RIVERS: Listen, in Cruise I trust.
LIMBONG: And is that part of the reason why? Yeah...
HARDYMON: Yes.
LIMBONG: ...In Cruise - it just, like, makes you feel something, then it's like, I don't know if I'm comfortable with that feeling.
HARDYMON: Yes.
LIMBONG: But I'm really feeling it right now.
RIVERS: That is kind of the power of certain movies. That is the power of what a Tom Cruise can do, where you kind of - intellectually, you think, well, I don't know if I can justify what I'm looking at, but - or what I'm getting. But viscerally, emotionally, you're just - you're in the danger zone.
HARDYMON: Yes (laughter).
RIVERS: Like, you know? You love it.
HARDYMON: That's right.
LIMBONG: Yeah. So that Roger Ebert review that I mentioned up top, that was for a great movie that I feel no guilt about called "The Wedding Singer."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SOMEBODY KILL ME PLEASE")
ADAM SANDLER: (As Robbie Hart, singing) You left me here all alone, tears running constantly. Oh, somebody kill me, please. Somebody kill me, please.
HARDYMON: That's a...
LIMBONG: It's a wonderful movie.
HARDYMON: ...You movie (ph).
RIVERS: Yeah, Ebert could be - love him, but he could be a hater sometimes.
LIMBONG: Well, I don't even...
HARDYMON: (Inaudible).
LIMBONG: This is one of those things where I can't even tell if it's a good or bad movie because I just - it is so tied with me watching it on TBS when I was like, 12 or 13.
HARDYMON: Yes.
LIMBONG: I guess the question I'm asking you is, like, how much does your own nostalgia play into the guilt you do or don't feel about (inaudible) movies?
RIVERS: I think it plays a heap.
HARDYMON: A huge role.
RIVERS: Yeah, a huge role - I mean, I remember - so Will Smith was the first Black hero I ever saw on the big screen, and that was a really big deal for me. And so when I saw "Wild Wild West," I wasn't thinking, oh, catastrophe, worst movie ever (ph). I was just like, Will Smith is in a Black cowboy outfit, shooting up Confederate generals.
LIMBONG: There's a giant spider.
RIVERS: Yes, giant spider - this is amazing.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WILD WILD WEST")
WILL SMITH: (As Capt. James West) Well, well, well, Dr. Loveless, I bet you thought it was pretty d*** funny, big metal foot on my face and all. If you ask me, somebody around here owes somebody else around here an apology.
RIVERS: You know, Will Smith says it was one of the biggest mistakes of his life. I profoundly disagree.
LIMBONG: 'Cause he turned down "The Matrix," right?
RIVERS: And that was a great choice...
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: ...'Cause he wouldn't have been - he wouldn't have done better than Keanu Reeves...
LIMBONG: Right.
RIVERS: ...And we wouldn't have gotten the "Wild Wild West" theme song with Sisqo.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WILD WILD WEST")
SMITH: (Rapping) When I bounce into the...
KOOL MOE DEE: (Rapping) Wild Wild West.
SMITH: (Rapping) Sisqo, Sisqo.
SISQO: (Singing) We're going straight to the Wild Wild West.
KOOL MOE DEE: (Rapping) Wild Wild West.
SISQO: (Singing) We're going straight to...
RIVERS: So I think we still win.
HARDYMON: And he pulled you into cinema.
RIVERS: He pulled me into cinema.
HARDYMON: God bless. Yeah.
RIVERS: Yeah. So "Wild Wild West" - not a great movie, but important to my cinematic awakening.
HARDYMON: Yeah. And I will say, like, again, it's really personal. The movies that I like are extremely about only me.
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARDYMON: Like, my - you know, like, for instance, I love "Center Stage."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "CENTER STAGE")
PETER GALLAGHER: (As Jonathan) If you work harder every day than you've ever worked in your life, this school will turn you into the best dancer you can possibly be. That may or may not be the kind of dancer I have room for in the company.
HARDYMON: Actually, I almost said "Save The Last Dance" because those two movies are, like - are shot in the same place, which is where I went to college.
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARDYMON: And they are sort of the same, like, slocky schlop (ph). But I love it because it reminds me of, like - of living with dancers and thinking about bad feet and a time when the only thing that told you a character was gay was that he liked Oprah.
(LAUGHTER)
HARDYMON: You know? Like, this kind of - again, like, I'm a little embarrassed about it, but it's like - but it's kind of fun. And that is totally my own, very specific nostalgia.
LIMBONG: That's NPR's Barrie Hardymon and Marc Rivers. Thank you guys for unpacking guilt for us.
RIVERS: Thank you.
HARDYMON: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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